The Great Immigration Panic

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If you haven't seen the New York Times editorial today, read it.  Duke wrote a great post about this over at The Sanctuary.

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zeezil said:

First, let us remember the "illegal" part of being an illegal immigrant. Most Americans don't seem to have problems with legal immigration, however it only seems fair to question the value of any additions to our country who already show no regard for it's laws upon arrival. [This comment has been deleted after it was just a repeat of what has been published in other forums]

kyledeb Author Profile Page said:

Dear zeezil,

First of all welcome to Citizen Orange. It's always an honor when someone new comes here, reads my words, and takes the time to comment. Please tell us a little bit more about yourself and why this issue matters to you. I would also ask that as we move forward, that we try to move towards solutions we can agree on, rather than on that we disagree on.

That being said, I can tell you that there is probably very little that we agree on. I will start by saying the term we use here is migrant. If you must distinguish between "legal" and "illegal" immigration, I prefer the term undocumented or unauthorized migrant, because the word illegal is used to often to dehumanize people and prevent the real issues from being talked about.

Next point: as much as nativists don't like it unauthorized migrants really do have rights given to them by the U.S. constitution. The U.S. constitution very specifically defines the rights only U.S. citizens have, like the right to vote, and rights that everyone else has. The best example of this is James M. Munley's ruling in the Hazelton case:

The genius of our Constitution is that it provides rights even to those who evoke the least sympathy from the general public. In that way, all in this nation can be confident of equal justice under its laws.

On support for "legal immigrants", and I assume the U.S. citizen children of undocumented immigrants. If people like yourself truly supported legal immigrants you'd make it a lot easier for people to migrate legally here, because right now it's ridiculous and far to many are getting swallowed up by the system with horror stories.

I've gotta say when you talk about "illegal immigrants" subverting your culture and national values, it not only smacks of racism and nativism, but it's false. All migrants, legal and illegal, have many of the same values U.S. citizens do, and these arguments of subverting culture have been used over and over again in U.S. history. Not only that but they are assimilating at a faster rate than migrants before them.

The problem after the 1986 amnesty wasn't that the borders weren't secure, but that they were in fact secured so well, that it forced migrants to stay in the U.S. when they were used to crossing back and forth in the past. It's not so much the increase in inflow of migration as it is a decrease in outflow in migration. Read the post I link to above about the word migrant to learn more.

Attrition through enforcement is one of the most draconian policy arguments I've ever heard. It basically argues for making life so miserable for migrants that they leave on their own. It's an argument for recreating the conditions these migrants are leaving from within the U.S.'s own borders. It's just another example of how nativists have turned this debate on it's head. The real solution is giving migrants opportunities in their home countries, not recreating the conditions from which they've fled.

I've got to say zeezil, I've never had to deal with so much misinformation in one comment before.

zeezil said:

Did you know that illegal aliens have "no standing" legally since they are in the country illegally. Yep, that's right. That was a decision rendered in a case just last year regarding Oklahoma's state law by a federal judge.

Furthermore, illegal aliens have no civil rights. Yep, that's right. Civil rights pertain ONLY to citizens. The Merriam-Webster online Dictionary defines civil-rights as: “The nonpolitical rights of a citizen; especially: the rights of personal liberty guaranteed to U.S. citizens by the 13th and 14th amendments to the Constitution and by acts of Congress.” If one is not a citizen of the country, civil rights do not apply.

zeezil said:

Since you wish to discuss terminology, let me oblidge.

With the vitriolic immigration debate roiling in all parts of our country, it is important to understand terminology... [This comment has been editted upon inspection that it just a reposting of a comment that has been submitted all over the internet]

kyledeb Author Profile Page said:

Please read the federal judges ruling that I pointed you to, below. Glen Beck made the same argument as your making, and the Mexican American Legal Defense Fund made him retract it. Again, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself, and start moving towards what we agree on, or otherwise, I'm going to assume that you're just here to disrupt this forum.

zeezil said:

I am merely here to dispel the inaccuracies that you list in your postings. If you consider that disruption, so be it. I consider it a debate, where two opposing sides exchange their positions.

kyledeb Author Profile Page said:

I just found out that you have been publishing these same comments all over the internet. Copying and pasting is not debate, it's coming to this forum with your mind already set. Please introduce yourself, because I'll bet your someone that is either paid, or has volunteered to do this for some nativist organization.

Please go disrupt some other forum.

zeezil said:

My comments are my words and my thoughts. As an American CITIZEN, free speech is still a right.

kyledeb Author Profile Page said:

You call it "free speech" but we blogger have another name for same comments copied and pasted all over the web, SPAM. Your unwillingness to introduce yourself, and my familiarity with you in other forums, leads me to believe that you are not interested in coming to some common ground and even worse, are probably working on behalf of some FAIR spinoff all the time to spread your nativism. I wish you luck elsewhere. If you want to express your opinion so badly I encourage you to start up your own blog.

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